Recorded: 26 October, 2018
Location: Liu Jianhua’s studio
Shen Ruijun (abbreviated as RJS):
Why have you used ceramics as the creative medium? What’s so special about ceramics compared to other mediums?
Liu Jianhua (abbreviated as LJH):
Actually it was both by accident and necessity. It’s related to an experience I had in my teenage years. I went to Jingdezhen at 12. In 1977, before I turned 15, the country at the time had the policy for experienced craftsmen to take apprentices at factories. I was learning painting from my uncle. He was a craft artist at the factory and had quota for one apprentice. So I studied with him for 8 years, learning the techniques of ceramics. However, I didn’t want to follow the passage of the older generation craft artists. So I spent three years studying for university entrance exam and was admitted. At the time, I thought it was fine arts like Rodin, Phidias, Chirico that should be pursued and wanted to avoid all materials used in craft arts. During my time at the university, the 85’ New Wave Movement interested me. I read and saw plenty. After graduation, I went to Kunming (Yunnan Province), 8 years’ experience in ceramics gave me a better grasp of how the work would present itself when choosing materials. These are the background of my choice of ceramics as the creative medium. Ceramics is indeed very different from the other materials. All the resources come from nature, and it’s one of the few things from China that are acknowledged by a wider and more global culture and art scene. It has traditions and history and is passed on till these days. Later, after I begun to create in this medium, I delved deeper into both the knowledge and my feeling of it. Eight years’ experience of apprenticeship was far from enough. My understanding of it constantly deepens. To these days, there are still many unknowns about this material.
RJS:
Could you give a detailed example about the uniqueness of this material?
LJH:
The procedure divisions of the ceramics production in Jingdezhen is uniquely detailed. There are 72 steps including moulding, shaping, slip casting, hand-pressing, firing, painting and etc. Each step is taken care by experienced experts. In Japan or Korea, one man can process multiple steps. Jingdezhen is different. The material is taken from nature, which is then processed to be ceramics material. When casting a copper figure, for example, a cup, one can first make a sand mould, then cast a wax model. The possibility of failure is relatively low. Maybe one out of ten would be slightly misshaped. But ceramics aren’t quite the same. During hand-pressing, force exerted by hands, mould materials for pressing, the thickness of clay, the timing of casting and removing the mould all require good judgments based on experience. When one trims the seam, the results depend on how much force goes into the trimming tool, whether you scrape away the joint line first than trim it or you press and flatten the line then correct it with more clay, every method has its nuances. Experience comes in as a very critical factor. Another example is glazing after the piece is firm. In ancient times, glaze was sprayed onto a piece’s surface with the help of mouth (which blows through a tool in order to spray), nowadays small motors are being used instead. Nonetheless, craftsmen have to control the spraying distance and take into consideration the viscosity of the kind of glaze in use; different kinds of glaze are applied in different thickness. A layer of ugyen glaze is as thick as a 1-yuan coin (1.85mm). White glaze may be thicker. Celadon glaze is one third thinner than that, otherwise the glaze would begin running, possibly causing the surface to crack. These are all characterstics of ceramics that make it differ from other materials. Its uniqueness is encompassed in the complex process and techniques. As a result, I would say the process of ceramics distinguishes itself from painting and photography. Techniques are always encompassed in artistic forms. Before, our understanding was deficient; we saw ceramics as a medium of craft art and separated it from fine art. That’s why I later tried to bring this material into the experimentation of contemporary art, to break inherent ideas held by the majority. The contemporary art circle wasn’t familiar with ceramics since no one had done it. My past experience helped, leading to constant changes and expectations during the process. My earliest works, qipao, took more than a year and less than two. I wanted to blow guyed glaze first, then to paint patters with gold waters whose contents contain more than 98% of gold. So the pattern appears a velvety texture. My past experience came into use, and the outcome was almost the same as what was expected. But that was also the moment when your past experience and judgement, your present concepts and the form you wish to express came together. The process went on for more than a year, pressing, drying, glazing, firing and painting, then second firing at a lower temperature. The first firing process produces porcelains. The temperature is at around 1340 Celsius degree. The second firing is at less than 900 Celsius degrees, to produce the colours. It could be very exciting at the beginning. Ceramics also had the characteristic of uncertainty. As clay is turned into different forms and enters kilns, realizing itself through the firing process, which is first at a lower temperature then raised to a high temperature, the exact outcome can’t be controlled except by following the process and existing experiences. The process was also handled with generalization. Different forms, thicknesses and sizes are all fired in the same kiln. A relative estimate is used. It can’t be fired according to the bigger bodies – then the smaller ones wouldn’t be able to make it, and would crack in the overly high temperature, nor can it be fired according to the medium or smaller bodies, the bigger ones wouldn’t be able to mature. Yet one kiln usually takes several dozens of bodies, all with different kinds of forms and designs.
RJS:
Why not fire one piece at a time?
LJH:
Because it’s the most economic and cost-efficient way. The firing cost isn’t cheap, nor is there a kiln that only fires one thing at a time. The effect of firing is rather scientific. The effect is namely the effect of a kiln’s temperature. If more pieces are loaded, each of them will be evenly heated. If less pieces go into one firing round, the heat will concentrate on fewer contents, and when there is only one content, it’s very likely to break. Normally a kiln of such large size won’t just fire one thing, the piece often goes with other batches. Then, it needs good judgments based on past experiences. It’s not that firing one thing per batch isn’t doable, it’s more important to seek the relatively reasonable solution. Thus, most of the time, no matter how experienced a potter is, he or she could only provide a basic opinion about the conditions of the ceramics in kiln, especially if the piece is not a common one, such as ugyen glaze. Although it has often been used on traditional designs of Zhongkui or Dharma, having the glaze fired with such a long design, laid flat, still has risks. It could snap, the temperature may not be enough for it to fully mature. These all need trials and errors. I work with new ideas every time I begin a new piece, nonetheless, I still need technicians’ help. I discuss and communicate with them. They have the expertise which is gained through producing the same design every day. The techniques and breakthroughs required by a new design might not be easily grasped even for them. So every piece of my work goes through many experiments. When you take up creative practices, regardless of your medium, you will always go through similar experiments, so you can express your concepts and feelings. Techniques should cooperate with you – this is the unavoidable process. But this medium, ceramics, just has so many procedures, it’s sensitive and delicate but also has an inherent, gentle power that distinguishes it from all the other materials.
RJS:
You once said, “ways and imaginations don’t last long in reality; people forever live in situations of unknown outcomes and illusory mentalities”. I think what you’ve said is a kind of acceptance or recognition of uncertainty. You’ve discussed a lot about development and planning of cities from aspects of information overload and homogenization. You’ve also expressed your views on high-speed development. Could you start with your thoughts on innovation and progress, then maybe revisit your choice of a medium that has such a long lineage?
LJH:
The first question you just said is a question confronted and thought of by everyone. The society develops so fast. Issues, especially those caused by globalization, need to be objectively viewed. I have discussed this question with others. I said at the time that the society certainly progresses forward, young people also constantly develop and progress. We shouldn’t question today’s young people from an old standpoint about their possibilities and the future outcomes in the long run. Just like how our parents’ generation found us problematic. But some also hold a different opinion; the present is not necessarily better than the past. Thus, I think it still depends on your perspective regarding the situation. From the viewpoint about humanism concerns and care for traditional cultures, one may find the present lacking a lot. It’s definitely a snarled up circumstance for many at the present day. On one hand, the overall needs to be pushed forward. On the other hand, people wish to maintain those inherent, familiar and valuable things. I think it’s very difficult to keep such balance along the course of human development. Today, we all happily enjoy the convenience of Taobao, Alipay and Wechat Pay. The value of cash slowly declines. However if unpredicted calamity occurs and signals and electricity fail, no trade would be possible without cash. I’m trying to point out potential negative influences such as those related to personal privacy. Such issues unravel faster in China because of its substantial size of population. At the same time, the exceeding scale of economic development fosters many problems. Of course, other countries also have similar issues but not as intense as what’s happening in China. As e-commerce like Taobao takes over, many brick-and-mortars are affected, among them are stores of over a hundred years old, which become part of the history, the culture and the memory of a nation and its people. When these things are impacted, will we also lose what’s valuable? And what will remain then? What remains is a form with nothing unique. It’s found everywhere. Just like the high-rises we see today. Furthermore, what kind of memory does this way and scale of urban development leave one with? Up to now, I genuinely can’t think of anything representative. I’ve been to Chengdu, Chongqing, Shanghai, Guangzhou… In the past, urban development was different. In such a high-speed process, no one takes time to stop and think but proceeds entirely according to economic gains. It’s actually forcibly erasing the memories. Even when returning to the small city I’ve lived in before, the past memories can no longer be found, not to mention the major cities.
RJS:
I think this is related to what you’ve said about ceramics. It reminds me of my research of Chinese gardens during which I also read about architecture. Why are architectures different from place to place? Guangzhou has greater rainfall, so the roofs are pyramid-shaped. As the natural environment varies, there are many elements to be considered. Stronger locality leads to specific characteristics. Also, there was no fast-replicating technologies of today. Nonetheless, it’s similar to your description of the process of making ceramics, which needs a balance of different states, and specific outcomes come from specific steps.
LJH:
China’s social structure is also very special. Cities around the world had all gone through the stage of urban development, but I think the China’s social development in the 1930s and 1940s are representative and special. Let’s not go into whether the development has turned out good or bad first, because of China’s institution, population, the need of social development, a lot of things are dashing at the hurdles set up according to interests. There is no time to go through and understand the contexts specific to different histories, cultures and geological environments. The entire China could only be unfolded unitarily, it is just a big testing ground. This gives roots to considerable problems. Plus, the process allows no time for comprehensive explication and proof. That’s why in the end everything is blowed up, good and bad. This is the state we’ve always faced. The debate of whether we should develop technology isn’t relevant. Human development necessarily happens at a certain tempo. Our relationship with nature, also the past architectural designs mentioned by you and many other aspects are all full of wisdom, accumulated over the years by our ancestors. Yet everything has been uprooted to made place for imported things today, with no heritage. China isn’t a place without history. Whether something fits your potential possibility could only be tested in the practicalities overtime.
RJS:
Do you have any concrete ideas for feasible solutions, possibly to compensate the situation?
LJH:
I don’t dare to speak of compensation. But I think if we can comparatively control our speed and institution, it could be much better. For the past 40 years, we’ve been developing all the time. People discuss about how to sustain traditions, and what can be brought by what we are seeing today. It’s actually already late. The destruction has been too severe. Plus, most things are simply replications, thus are fake and not the same as the actual and real. Why can’t we learn from others’ experience and notice these problems? It’s still a problem of speed. Because China was too far behind at first and wanted to catch up. But instead of rejecting it all, one has to figure out in what aspects are we lagging behind. Where is your culture and the context of your urban development? What is the space for human to inhabit? How could you uproot it all? I lived in Kunming for more than a decade. When I first arrived there, many architectures from Republic of China still existed. Buildings along the streets were very interesting. There were a lot of trees, and roads were paved with bluestone slabs dated to the end of Qing dynasty, or early years of Republic of China at least. When one walked on Qingyun Street and Wenming Street, it was as if walking in the steps of the revered scholars from National Southwestern Associated University (abbreviated as NSAU).
RJS:
That’s the accumulation of spirituality and culture.
LJH:
I could really feel it. The year I went to Kunming was 1989, and the government started to pull down old architectures in the 90s. Near Yunnan Normal University, which is the former site of NSAU, there is a street called Wenming Street. Further down the street there is a Mister Slope. The name had to do with those who taught at NSAU and the location of the school dorm. These Misters walked along the slope every morning and after work. Walking on those stone slabs, you could really feel the past. Now, all the old roads are demolished. One could even drive a car on it, but it’s still called Mister Slope. Can you still have the same feeling? In other countries, many relics are protected. I think the meaning of social development shouldn’t be solely judged from the people’s points of view, who see no trouble as soon as their incomes grow and living standards improve. However, what is a country’s ultimate strength beside economics and military? Humanities and histories are so important. These are what makes a country truly great and can’t be bought at any price.
RJS:
Many of my foreign friends hold the opinion that China is threatening. As China vigorously develops technological innovation, they are afraid that when China, a centralized nation, gets hold of the best technology, it would then rule over the world.
LJH:
This is to see from another perspective. What can high-tech things bring to us? I always look at it objectively. Just like when I was working on Dream, I was thinking about how human beings are constantly developing, with a courage of immense vigor, we have conquered the nature and universe. Of course, I am not a scientist. In fact, there is a certain balance in the entire universe. Can over-development really bring expected things? For example, Taobao is actually related to the development of IT industry. Although the originals are not made in China, China is particularly good in application, so I said that China is a big testing ground. Anything original in the world is utilized in China in a much bigger scale, producing great benefits. Of course, the brick-and-mortars are affected. Is this really our direction? I think it’s the same with artificial intelligence. How does the use of high technology and robot have harmful impacts on human beings? Would it be the same as you have expected?
RJS:
So maybe substances could not be held against a unitary standard?
LJH:
Because I think the problem now is a lack of possibility for thinking, dialectically. What foreigners are observating now is simply rapid development, but have they considered any negative aspects brought by the development at a certain stage?
RJS:
This is very interesting, but I think maybe Chinese tend to think more. We tend to consider both the cause and the effect beforehand. Only Westerners regard progress as absolute. Perhaps this could be a very important aspect of our contribution to contemporary civilization.
LJH:
Actually, things do often bring excitement and danger when it’s at the most strong state. But there are always turning points and problems that should be considered. Besides what you believed to be progressive and justified, is there anything else?
RJS:
Can you delve into the cultural roots of your ideas?
LJH:
I think the Orientals have a kind of tenacity, which is quite different as people in the West. The President of the United States has got a unique personality. He speaks and does things very rigidly, without plasticity. Orientals may not be the same, and the way they think about problems is different. The president may be very staunch, but we can’t say that there is nothing staunch in the character of the Orientals. It is just that the way of expression, the way of thinking, the structure of knowledge, and the environment for growth are different. As a result, there will be certain traits in the judgment of things, and they will appear to the others as difference.
RJS:
Let’s talk about specific works. You have a piece called The Virtual Scene, why is it virtual?
LJH:
It is actually an expression of social development, but I don’t want to use art expressions that are too indexical and explicit. For example, this “virtual scene” may be modeled or expressed in an “actual” way. I always hope, in the expression of artworks, there is a relationship with reality as well as a distance. In this distance, audience is given a certain space to experience and think. I am not willing to present a very specific environment. Of course, there are such works, but I hope this kind of work has this feeling in it. The use of chips is also related to my personal experience. I went to Korea in 2005, during which some friends liked to gamble asked me to join. I don’t usually participate in these things, but I still went. At that time, I brought a thousand dollar with me without really thinking about winning or losing. It would just end when the money ran out. I didn’t bring one extra penny. This is also a standard of mine. So others say that I am rather rational. This is my character. That time, I did not lose but won two thousand dollars. Most people would continue to gamble. At that time, people might feel that they can win more, but I thought it was as much possible to lose.
RJS:
So, in fact, the point of balance has always been in your personal character and your creative practice.
LJH:
Yes, it is obvious that there are such factors in it. After winning, I came back. At the time, He An wanted to organize an exhibition about one dollar. I wanted to use coins to make stacks of money, and place them in front of the buildings in Shanghai for photos, but did not do it in the end. After returning from Seoul, I felt that I should use chips instead. First I took a few photos of Pudong and at the Bund, because I think Pudong is a symbol of capital accumulation in Chinese society. The Bund was an icon of the 1920s and 1930s, extending along both sides of Huangpu River. It’s quite interesting. Later, I received other exhibition invitations, so I wanted to make it into an installation. Almost all chips around the world are produced in Shenzhen. I bought a lot of them and then made this installation. In fact, there are a lot of reflections about the development of real cities existing in this installation. When we were young, we read from books that Shanghai is a paradise for adventurers. This was the official propaganda statement of Shanghai in the Republic of China or in the late Qing Dynasty. The statement still holds true today. People have expectations for the city. Its adventurousness has continued to this day. Living in such a city is actually quite illusory. When you go to the highest building in Pudong to watch the scenery, or sit in a coffee shop and drink coffee, overlooking Shanghai, it seems that everything has something to do with you. In fact, nothing has anything to do with you.
RJS:
Then what would be a real relevance in your opinion?
LJH:
It’s like a kite. There seems to be no relevance, yet it pulls you.
RJS:
So what do you think is the actual?
LJH:
A feeling of floating in the mid-air. Our life still feels like that to this day.
RJS:
What is not floating in the mid-air then?
LJH:
Some changes are needed. Many things have little to do with individuals, but involve things at a deeper level.
RJS:
I do not quite understand. Then what do you think that causes the feeling or the state of floating in the air?
LJH:
There are a lot of factors. Whether a city has any relationship with you when it focuses on development has something to do with the institution. A person’s life is mostly constituted of tea, rice, oil and salt, very practical. Would one obtain a sense of accomplishment in this institution? This feeling of having some sort of connection with the city is intimately experienced. It’s particularly real. But I think it’s actually just an illusory thing that exists all the time. For instance, you live in Guangzhou, and you look at the very beautiful Canton Tower, you think it looks a little better than the Oriental Pearl in Shanghai, but how much relationship does the rapid development of Guangzhou have to do with you? Being a city person, you feel quite happy. This is a sign. But what does this sign have to do with you? It is a sign that media represents. What can media bring to you?
RJS:
I agree with you. What do you think of the change that Chinese people, who are now richer and richer, can be able to walk with their backs straightened up?
LJH:
If the approach of development is more scientific, you would get more than this. We are developing fast now, but many things like air, food, are still not safe. There are still many things that are limited. In the above-mentioned aspects, if the development is slower, the supervision system will be able to keep up… Travelling a lot more, growing savings, better outfits, but still, you are not safe.
RJS:
Actually, the way you look at things is quite multi-dimensional.
LJH:
Develope at a slower pace but safer, wouldn’t that be better? There is no need to be so fast, and problems in Chinese society are all related caused by this speed. The problem is essentially the lack of balance. In the past, the two sides were moving at the same time, the economic and the political system. But later the concern for balance slackened.
RJS:
In many of your works, you often engage with an entire scene, such as in Dream. To me, seeing it in person is quite impressive. Why do you engage with the scenes in your creation? You are not making sculpture, you are making scenes.
LJH:
This is also the result of an evolving creative language. I have a background in sculpture, thus a sense of 3-dimensional objects and spaces. When I embark on the experiments of contemporary art practice, I felt that the possibility of sculpture and installation should expand and reach into space. My original concern for Dream was to put a large installation in a space, with images, sound and visitors walking on shards to convey the atmosphere. But when it comes to make the actual piece, I had a clearer sense of the space and wanted the work to have a connection with the space, which can extend the intensity of the work. At the same time, I also wanted to form a concept of “field” for the visitors to enter, thus creating a distance from reality. Visitors can acquire the quietness and spirit they need. Reality is a lively racket, in which you experience very complex things. But I wish you to put those things down when entering the space of the work.
RJS:
The “field” you described is actually an atmosphere, like what you’ve said about the old streets in Kunming. What you are describing is actually a sense and atmosphere, not a physical appearance.
LJH:
This is very important. Sometimes it is difficult for a person to express through forms, and what are expressed through physical forms could be easily forgotten. But I feel that once a person gets hold of the memory of space, field and emotion, it becomes embedded in his or her brain and mind. This often endures longer than the visual, and is more gripping.
RJS:
Yet in today’s world, only things with clear keywords and visuals spread the fastest. What you are describing is very rare. It could not be easily communicated on smartphones and social networks, in other words, it’s not the easiest thing to spread.
LJH:
Because once it enters into your system, it leaves memory, then comes feelings. For example, if we visit temples quite often, a lit incense would immediately remind us of Buddhism or other related things. This is an example of feelings induced by memory. In other words, as soon as one enters the “field”, there will be memory left. I hope this kind of feeling could permeate in the air of the space. Regardless of the size of the space, one incense is enough to fill the room.
RJS:
According to my experience with agarwood incense, it’s really possible to be instantly transfered to another dimension.
LJH:
This is why art works need to have relationships with space. I also hope that when I create, I can use my own language to produce new things, and to change as those clues emerge along the process. This transformation doesn’t happen in leaps. Even a little bit can bring new possibilities.
RJS:
Most of your works prior to the series Untitled are very 3-D. All of a sudden, you flattened them. Blank Paper is even more interesting. It’s at the same time an abstract and a real piece of paper. Could you talk about these two works?
LJH:
I will speak from the chronological aspect first. I made Untitled in 2008. Before that, I did Yiwu Survey and Export-Cargo Transit to represent the development of Chinese economic model in a global context, to discuss some of the related problems. However, expressions involving readymades have been associated with western art language. There should be something new. It’s also my hope that an artist should have his or her own language. Chinese art should have dialogues with western art on an equal global platform, rather than conveniently appropriating Chinese symbols out of sheer attraction of novelty. Therefore, I should continue to use ceramics. Dream shattered the ceramics, then I began to think about the next step. Besides ceramics, I also experimented with other materials at the time. When I returned to ceramics again in 2008, I thought the model of talking about pictures should slowly be weakened or faded away, in order to form a new language. This new art language should come from your experience of the whole society. But the way to express outght to be entirely different. I’m most familiar with the material of ceramics. I believed I should still use ceramics to create. So I chose mutual stares between people’s heads and utensils which are mostly from Song dynasty. I have a special interest in Song dynasty and its objects, such as Ru Kiln, Jun kiln, Longquan Kiln, Ge Kiln and etc. They are very cultivated and have a strong ritualistic sense, especially spiritual, which are also what we lack now. In many western artists’ works, we can see the ins and outs of their creations and the historical lineage. I hope that Chinese artists can build their own language systems, so I chose these, to create a space that surrounds people. At the same time, this work seems to be a 3-D shape that is squashed onto the wall. I also wanted the visuals to be different. The reception of Untitled was ok, so I continued the work. Blank Paper was one of the ideas. I still make them now. Two or three of them are still in need of experiments. The success rate is very low. Only large amount of work could get me to the effect I’m looking for. Paper has a lot to do with China. But I’m not trying to talk about paper itself. At the time, I was simply going back to the material, purely experimenting. I realised that using ceramics to express the form of white paper is very intriguing. Because the way of expression and the process of making are all artificial, thus having an intimate contact with people throughout the process. But in the final presentation, this contact is nowhere to be seen. In fact, the content of the work is the close relationship with people during the process. The raw materials have been taken from various mines, then gone through processing and smeltery. The production wasn’t mechanical. We hand-pressed the model, as if pressing a dough with a roller pin. Due to uneven thickness, it easily cracks when dried. Besides, The short supply of raw material means they need to be handled differently as we source from one mine to another. Then, it needs to be polished, the thickness and how you handle the process, fast or slow, light or heavy, all require experience. After it dries, the model is fired in kiln. The factor of human is present in every step. It’s covered with human traces. I think it’s quite interesting to insert this process into the form. Blank paper is for writing, but on it we didn’t write with ink but only processes, actions and traces. Visitors in the exhibition were so quiet, contemplating at the slightly warped corner of the paper. Some suggested to make it pure, without the warp. To me that would be minimalism. The East thinks differently to the West. It has its own emotions.
RJS:
Would that be qiyun (the character, tone, style or character of a work of art)?
LJH:
I don’t think it’s qiyun, but rather personal feeling and thinkings that are different for everyone. It’s a kind of aloofness, anti-pop, anti-abstract-expressionism, anti-science, or anti-art through certain things obtained from science. These all factor in. It’s cold, high-tech, without many conceptual things – because it’s made by an Oriental. So I want it to have emotions, thus the warp. When audiences look at them, everyone would have a different feeling and write themselves inside themselves.
RJS:
Like the blank space in Chinese paintings.
LJH:
It surely has certain cultural connotations, not to mention it’s made of delicate ceramics that are technically very challenging. Together, these factors might constitute the reason behind the much attention attracted to this work.
RJS:
Is this work related to your observations and reflections of society, or is it a pure exploration of artistic language?
LJH:
I think they are related. All my works are related to the society. This relation is dissolved in the system, or it could also be said that they are opposing. Because the entirety of one’s ideas can’t be detached from the stimulation or calmness brought by the social reality he/she lives in. In the 2008 exhibition Untitled, I proposed concepts of “meaningless” and “content-less”. They were in quotation marks, so the words are not really meaningless or without a content or totally detached from the social reality. It was a choice made with one’s reflection about it. So I mentioned earlier that the concept of “field” is to hope that the audience will break away from the daily social reality and to enter into the “field” for an alternative feeling. In my works before 2008, you could feel the atmosphere both inside and outside of the work. You wouldn’t be moved this way. It doesn’t have a shift. So rhythm and shift are still necessary. I hope one could fall into deeper thoughts through this shift. When others write about aesthetics and theory, they often emphasize more on experimentation around materials. Of course, artistic expression has relation with materials. But has this work anything to do with the society? Not so certain. But it still comes from your feelings living in the environment. So I think it can’t be cleanly cut apart.
RJS:
It also has something to do with what you brought up at the beginning, the society is developing too fast, and it needs to slow down. Your work provides a field for it to at least slow down for a moment.
LJH:
That’s right. I believe we can think of it this way. But speaking as an individual artist, I also hope to build a personal language system that is original and distinguishes itself from the others. Otherwise, it won’t be strong enough and won’t be able to move people.
RJS:
One last question. You just mentioned the kilns in Song dynasty. What are the aesthetic traits or spiritual depths of these kilns that move you the most?
LJH:
I find them extraordinarily pure, without any trace of impurity to be seen. This is my first impression. That is to say, even though the technology of that time is not as good as it is now, even less refined – the so called “crude” is just a way of putting it. You could see that its spin and glaze aren’t as fine as the reproductions. Nowadays, in order to reproduce ancient objects, all need to be studied and imitated, from the forms to the glazes, to achieve a completeness, fine and smooth, without any blemish. But when you see it, you feel nothing. Some of high-end replicas are made with expertise. However, the inner temperament, emotions, limitations and the materials’ characteristics can’t be reproduced. I’m not an expert in this area, but I’ve seen some Ru Kiln and Jun Kiln objects. One could really be moved by them. I’ve also seen reproductions, including those exhibited at Jingdezhen International Ceramic Fair. Some of them did have great qualities, but you wouldn’t be moved. You can’t feel the inner “soul”.
RJS:
Do you mean that each of them is very animated?
LJH:
Right, even if they have some blemishes, or are crooked, but they’re unadorned. That’s why Han culture was the most aesthetically accomplished during Song dynasty. To be honest, the same level of achievement was never achieved again, even in today, including contemporary art.
RJS:
Ming and Qing dynasties became more and more mundane.
LJH:
I’ve also been thinking about the reasons. I visit museums quite often. I think it could only be understood from the level of social culture at the time. The entire Song culture and art developed rapidly because of the nation’s power, guoxue (study of ancient classics), lixue (study of neo-confucianism), lyrics and landscape paintings. It had such an extensive foundation, which leads to a proliferation of demand and thus a bigger market. Craftsmen at kilns in Jingdezhen and the other cities couldn’t draw or paint. And they were not so well versed as the literati. But they knew what was wanted. As time passes, their aesthetics were visually assimilated. Whatever they made or painted, it would be habitually good and wanted. That was because the entire social class had a very high standard, so they were so popular and widespread.
RJS:
You just said objects in Song Dynasty were very pure. You were right on the point. But nowadays many artworks require elucidation. A single piece of work is elaborated by an entire article. I think ceramics are just like traditional paintings, the knack could hardly be described through spoken language, or grasped by amateurs. What do you think of this difference?
LJH:
I think this is a question of knowledge structure. The audience need to understand the background knowledge. Paintings are a bit difficult. There are very few artists in the world who have made breakthroughs in painting, because painting has evolved through so many years, a small breakthrough would already be ground-breaking. Some works are very well painted and also carry certain concepts, which would usually be more popular. Therefore, whether viewers can enter the work or not is actually related to their structures of knowledge. Because painting has a longer history, one has to have certain knowledge background, to take time to see and experience. And not everyone has a gift in understanding artworks. I think paintings are more capable of testing a person’s talent. Yet, the understanding could be very 3-D at times. If he or she can speak of some reasons and is excited about it, then I guess it could be said that he or she understands. Actually, the genuinely conceptual works are very difficult to enter. It has got its own system of language. I visited Tate in UK last year and saw an exhibition of conceptual art from the 60s to the 80s. The exhibition was well done. Yet my English isn’t good, and the works’ forms of expression are quite introverted. But once you know about the trajectory of its development and understand what it tries to express, then it’s possible to evaluate it in the context of art history. Just like looking at a Beuys, many things can’t be circumvented. Artists after him can criticise him, anti-him, but it is what you create that’s important. Criticising Beuys or Duchamp is easy in such an open-minded environment. The key is what have you created that may be as good as them? Just like many materials and subjects, it’s not like once it’s been used, no one else could use the same thing again. What’s important is whether your use of it differs from the others. Do you have your own thinking in the use of the material? Have you expressed different things? These would in turn create new things and thus the artist’s works get recognitions. You’ve proved your work to be valuable. That’s why I believe that Chinese art, after all these years of development, market, collectors and art fairs, have challenged the originality of Chinese artists significantly. How to sustain one’s passion and creative state, to continually reflect, delve deeper, accumulate and obtain new understanding is what artists need to pay attention to. Creativity is absolutely crucial, without it the artist can only replicate and produce mechanically.
RJS:
That’s a kind of independence.
LJH:
Right. Independence and ability to think are the two most important requirements for artists. Artists stay in the same circle influence one another, then the self would disappear. Communication is important but not at the price of independence.
